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RE: Plan stampers

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I can't take it anymore.  You are all in the world's second oldest profession
and some of you get paid like you were in the world's oldest profession and
from this thread it sounds like some of you conduct your business like you
are in the world's oldest profession.

The bottom is whether you own and understand what is on the paper you are
sealing.  The purpose of state laws that say your plans need to have your
title block on them  or drafters need to be sitting next to you are just to
make sure you are not pimping yourself. If you are not pimping yourself, the
little cricket on your shoulder will let you sleep at night.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, William [mailto:ShermanWC(--nospam--at)cdm.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:50 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Plan stampers

The fact that the law has gray areas does not mean that it "has nothing
to do with legality".  I would say that "it is strictly a personal
decision" whether you want to obey any law, but you run the risk of
being caught and punished.  States do adopt laws relating the sealing of
plans - the fact that some people get away with ignoring laws does not
change the intent of the law. 

William C. Sherman, PE 
(Bill Sherman) 
CDM, Denver, CO
Phone: 303-298-1311
Fax: 303-293-8236
email: shermanwc(--nospam--at)cdm.com
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Polin [mailto:KevinPolin(--nospam--at)Cyberonic.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 1:52 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Plan stampers
> 
> Jim you are absolutely right.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that it is strictly a personal, 
> decision of the engineer. 
> 
> Slice it however you want it overall has nothing to do with legality. 
> 
> Based on the examples cited here, If you are going to get 
> dragged into a lawsuit, then you are going to get dragged 
> into a lawsuit, whether it's your fault or not. 
> 
> Receive the plans, Review the plans, make some notes, seal 
> the plans, and go to dinner and take your wife shopping. Live life.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Wilson [mailto:wilsonengineers(--nospam--at)yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:21 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Plan stampers
> 
> I guess I'm struggling with what the definitive illegal 
> offense is in some cases.  I'm straight with the illegality 
> of plan stamping like the guy from PA that offered to stamp 
> plans for $9 a sheet, or whatever it was.  That's perfectly 
> clear.  I'm also straight with the concept of direct supervision. 
> Whether the intent is to ensure that younger unlicensed 
> engineers are being properly taught, or to ensure that the 
> stamping engineer is fully aware of what is in the design, 
> the assumptions, etc., that aspect is clear.
> 
> But is it clear legally if one firm prepares a design and set 
> of drawings, but needs them stamped by an outside engineer 
> because the firm doesn't have an in-house engineer licensed 
> in a particular state?  Any possibility for direct 
> supervision is out the window. 
> By what I've been reading today and have read here in the 
> past, this is considered an illegal act.  Now, if that 
> outside engineer does full due diligence and provides an 
> independent calculation or full check set, and then stamps 
> the drawings or calcs, has that engineer acted within the 
> law?  I expect so, as many of us have done that at one point 
> or another.  But what about the firm that did the original 
> design and prepared the original drawings?  Have they acted 
> illegally by "practicing" in another state without license or 
> perhaps without proper supervision?  It sounds like maybe they have.
> 
> That's where it doesn't seem black and white.  The concept of 
> "direct supervision" seems to be in contradiction with 
> stamping a drawing prepared by anyone other than an employee 
> under responsible charge, even if the PE provided a proper 
> check set of calcs and validated the design.
> 
> Different states with different laws don't make this any easier. 
> 
> Jim Wilson, PE
> Stroudsburg, PA

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