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Re: Field welding

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I think I would prefer a greeter (sp?) at Wal Mart. You might have to do a little work at McD's.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Maxwell" <smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Field welding


Joe,

Welcome to the wonderful world of "gray".  Principled things like firing
clients, tearing out and replacing, etc are all nice and dandy in theory.
But, they can potentially put a serious damper on the ability to put food
on the table at times, especially in certain areas.  That is the joy of
our business.  How "principled" one chooses to be becomes a function to
some degree of how busy one is and how busy one want's to stay.  It is
real easy to fire a client if you have tons of clients beating down your
door...much tougher if the work load is a little "slow".  Ah, the joy of
business decisions...

I suppose there is always the minimum wage job at McDonalds (hey, free
food though right?) or Walmart.

:-)

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Sat, 10 Sep 2005, Joseph  Grill wrote:

Gary,
I don't doubt you.  I also understand that is common practice in parts of
the US also to have the fabricators design the connections.  I have never
lived in those areas though. I will also say that when I'm fairly certain that I will get good shop welding or for that matter good field welding, I
use full allowable stresses in the weld design.  I'll try to explain my
point a little better.

I have lived in this area of the desert SW for almost two years now. Before
moving to this area I worked in areas of the country that kept up with
construction practices, design practices, yes and even attitudes etc., and
some areas that I thought were behind the times, but this particular area
really is really back there. It's a whole different scene and a whole
different attitude. I make good money and my wife makes better money and we love the climate and many other things about the area and wish to stay. Our company has discussed getting out of structural design entirely due to the practices and attitudes towards the structural engineer and the fees clients
are willing to pay for structural engineering.  I would say the building
department is trying to change in regards to structural requirements, but
that change is coming slow.  I may have to gradually move into some site
civil and on-site waste water management, to remain employed in the area.
Those on the list that advocate things such as demanding mistakes by the
contractor be immediately removed and replaced, demanding continuous on-site
inspections, etc. must be working in an area where there is a bottomless
bucket full of clients, 'cause it ain't that way here. P*** off a couple of the architects and contractors in the area, and you are out of business. So we try to work with them, try to gradually train them and gradually change
some attitudes.  That includes contractors, "designers", architects, and
building departments, realtors and owners. It is very slow going and we may
or may not get there.

Back to the original welding discussion. I know requiring certification is
common practice, and was so in all other places that I have worked, but
practice and reality is not always the same in some locations. I recognize that and take that in to account in some designs. If that means using 50%, 60%, 70% or full stresses in weld design or any other materials. You LRFD designers can understand it as a lowering of the phi factor that takes in to
account materials and workmanship.

I understand "take it out and replace it", I understand firing clients,
demanding inspections etc., etc.  I have been there for all those things,
but that ain't the way it is everywhere all the time. Sometimes adjustments
have to be made.

Joe


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Hodgson & Associates" <ghodgson(--nospam--at)bellnet.ca>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:41 AM
Subject: RE: Field welding


> Joe,
> It is quite common in Canada to ask the fabricator to choose the
> connections and have his engineer stamp the drawings for adequacy of
> connections. The set-up in Can with regard to welding is different
> than the US as every company engaged in welding of structural steel
> for structures must be certifed by the Can Welding Bureau and must
> hire or retain a professional engineer who will take responsibility
> for welding engineering.
> Gary
>
>
> On 9 Sep 2005 at 10:33, Joe Grill wrote:
>
>> I hadn't jumped in on this thread yet.  I'm curious as to why the
>> engineer would even mention what he used as allowable stresses on the
>> welds unless he was leaving the connection designs up to the
>> fabricator.  That being said I think Jordan has covered the issue as
>> far as I'm concerned.  I practice in an area where you never know who
>> might be doing the welding in the field.  I can spec. anything as far
>> as certifications etc etc. and will never know, because beyond the
>> design I may have nothing more to do with the project. This area is
>> like doing design in a third world country.  I've seen too many
>> instances where grade 60 reinforcing is called for and grade 40 is
>> placed. I don't think anyone in the area knows how to tell the
>> difference in the field.  I could go on and on.  Anyway, since I have
>> moved here I will now use a reduced stress on field welds; I will
>> design with 2500 psi concrete and grade 40 reinforcing because what I
>> have seen in the field.  Building inspectors have not been any help,
>> and the "designers" and architects don't seem to care.  Like the other
>> recent thread, the problems generally come back to the engineer to
>> correct.  There wouldn't be too many "take it out and replace it"
>> instances before I would be totally out of work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> Joseph R. Grill, P.E. (Structural)
>>
>> Shephard - Wesnitzer, Inc.
>>
>> Civil Engineering and Surveying
>>
>> 1146 W. Hwy 89A Suite B
>>
>> Sedona, AZ  86340
>>
>> PHONE (928) 282-1061
>>
>> FAX (928) 282-2058
>>
>> jgrill(--nospam--at)swiaz.com
>>
>>
>>
>>  <http://inet/index.htm>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:10 AM To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>> Subject: Re: Field welding
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think it has anything to do with the pledge.  In the case of
>> field welding in education projects, it could be a "prayer in school"
>> issue, depending on who's doing the welding. ;-)
>>
>> gskwy(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I have obviously not been following this thread closely enough since I
>> can't quite figure out the connection between field welding and United
>> State Court of Appeals for the Ninth Cuircuit,  but if anyone needs
>> the court web site, here it is:  http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/
>>
>>
>>
>> If I had to guess, I would say the connection may somehow have
>> something to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, which in and of itself
>> does not seem to be strongly connected to field welding.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gail Kelley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Polhemus  <mailto:bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc> <bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc> To:
>> seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org Sent: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:43:32 -0500 Subject: Re:
>> Field welding
>>
>>
>> I realize that there are code provisions that may be questionable as
>> to their wisdom in the fulness of time, but that's true of virtually
>> any human endeavor.
>>
>> Certainly they are less arbitrary than many--if not most--of the
>> decisions handed down by the U.S. Ninth Circuit.
>>
>>
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