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Re: Field welding

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Yah, but free fries!  That has gotta be a worth a little work, even if it
would just add to my already bulging middle!  ;-)

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Sat, 10 Sep 2005, Joseph  Grill wrote:

> I think I would prefer a greeter (sp?) at Wal Mart. You might have to do a
> little work at McD's.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Maxwell" <smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu>
> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Field welding
>
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > Welcome to the wonderful world of "gray".  Principled things like firing
> > clients, tearing out and replacing, etc are all nice and dandy in theory.
> > But, they can potentially put a serious damper on the ability to put food
> > on the table at times, especially in certain areas.  That is the joy of
> > our business.  How "principled" one chooses to be becomes a function to
> > some degree of how busy one is and how busy one want's to stay.  It is
> > real easy to fire a client if you have tons of clients beating down your
> > door...much tougher if the work load is a little "slow".  Ah, the joy of
> > business decisions...
> >
> > I suppose there is always the minimum wage job at McDonalds (hey, free
> > food though right?) or Walmart.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Scott
> > Adrian, MI
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 10 Sep 2005, Joseph  Grill wrote:
> >
> >> Gary,
> >> I don't doubt you.  I also understand that is common practice in parts of
> >> the US also to have the fabricators design the connections.  I have never
> >> lived in those areas though.  I will also say that when I'm fairly
> >> certain
> >> that I will get good shop welding or for that matter good field welding,
> >> I
> >> use full allowable stresses in the weld design.  I'll try to explain my
> >> point a little better.
> >>
> >> I have lived in this area of the desert SW for almost two years now.
> >> Before
> >> moving to this area I worked in areas of the country that kept up with
> >> construction practices, design practices, yes and even attitudes etc.,
> >> and
> >> some areas that I thought were behind the times, but this particular area
> >> really is really back there. It's a whole different scene and a whole
> >> different attitude.  I make good money and my wife makes better money and
> >> we
> >> love the climate and many other things about the area and wish to stay.
> >> Our
> >> company has discussed getting out of structural design entirely due to
> >> the
> >> practices and attitudes towards the structural engineer and the fees
> >> clients
> >> are willing to pay for structural engineering.  I would say the building
> >> department is trying to change in regards to structural requirements, but
> >> that change is coming slow.  I may have to gradually move into some site
> >> civil and on-site waste water management, to remain employed in the area.
> >> Those on the list that advocate things such as demanding mistakes by the
> >> contractor be immediately removed and replaced, demanding continuous
> >> on-site
> >> inspections, etc. must be working in an area where there is a bottomless
> >> bucket full of clients, 'cause it ain't that way here.  P*** off a couple
> >> of
> >> the architects and contractors in the area, and you are out of business.
> >> So
> >> we try to work with them, try to gradually train them and gradually
> >> change
> >> some attitudes.  That includes contractors, "designers", architects, and
> >> building departments, realtors and owners.  It is very slow going and we
> >> may
> >> or may not get there.
> >>
> >> Back to the original welding discussion.  I know requiring certification
> >> is
> >> common practice, and was so in all other places that I have worked, but
> >> practice and reality is not always the same in some locations.  I
> >> recognize
> >> that and take that in to account in some designs.  If that means using
> >> 50%,
> >> 60%, 70% or full stresses in weld design or any other materials.  You
> >> LRFD
> >> designers can understand it as a lowering of the phi factor that takes in
> >> to
> >> account materials and workmanship.
> >>
> >> I understand "take it out and replace it", I understand firing clients,
> >> demanding inspections etc., etc.  I have been there for all those things,
> >> but that ain't the way it is everywhere all the time.  Sometimes
> >> adjustments
> >> have to be made.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Gary Hodgson & Associates" <ghodgson(--nospam--at)bellnet.ca>
> >> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:41 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Field welding
> >>
> >>
> >> > Joe,
> >> > It is quite common in Canada to ask the fabricator to choose the
> >> > connections and have his engineer stamp the drawings for adequacy of
> >> > connections. The set-up in Can with regard to welding is different
> >> > than the US as every company engaged in welding of structural steel
> >> > for structures must be certifed by the Can Welding Bureau and must
> >> > hire or retain a professional engineer who will take responsibility
> >> > for welding engineering.
> >> > Gary
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 9 Sep 2005 at 10:33, Joe Grill wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I hadn't jumped in on this thread yet.  I'm curious as to why the
> >> >> engineer would even mention what he used as allowable stresses on the
> >> >> welds unless he was leaving the connection designs up to the
> >> >> fabricator.  That being said I think Jordan has covered the issue as
> >> >> far as I'm concerned.  I practice in an area where you never know who
> >> >> might be doing the welding in the field.  I can spec. anything as far
> >> >> as certifications etc etc. and will never know, because beyond the
> >> >> design I may have nothing more to do with the project. This area is
> >> >> like doing design in a third world country.  I've seen too many
> >> >> instances where grade 60 reinforcing is called for and grade 40 is
> >> >> placed. I don't think anyone in the area knows how to tell the
> >> >> difference in the field.  I could go on and on.  Anyway, since I have
> >> >> moved here I will now use a reduced stress on field welds; I will
> >> >> design with 2500 psi concrete and grade 40 reinforcing because what I
> >> >> have seen in the field.  Building inspectors have not been any help,
> >> >> and the "designers" and architects don't seem to care.  Like the other
> >> >> recent thread, the problems generally come back to the engineer to
> >> >> correct.  There wouldn't be too many "take it out and replace it"
> >> >> instances before I would be totally out of work.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Joe
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Joseph R. Grill, P.E. (Structural)
> >> >>
> >> >> Shephard - Wesnitzer, Inc.
> >> >>
> >> >> Civil Engineering and Surveying
> >> >>
> >> >> 1146 W. Hwy 89A Suite B
> >> >>
> >> >> Sedona, AZ  86340
> >> >>
> >> >> PHONE (928) 282-1061
> >> >>
> >> >> FAX (928) 282-2058
> >> >>
> >> >> jgrill(--nospam--at)swiaz.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>  <http://inet/index.htm>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com]
> >> >> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:10 AM To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> >> >> Subject: Re: Field welding
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't think it has anything to do with the pledge.  In the case of
> >> >> field welding in education projects, it could be a "prayer in school"
> >> >> issue, depending on who's doing the welding. ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> gskwy(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I have obviously not been following this thread closely enough since I
> >> >> can't quite figure out the connection between field welding and United
> >> >> State Court of Appeals for the Ninth Cuircuit,  but if anyone needs
> >> >> the court web site, here it is:  http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If I had to guess, I would say the connection may somehow have
> >> >> something to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, which in and of itself
> >> >> does not seem to be strongly connected to field welding.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Gail Kelley
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Bill Polhemus  <mailto:bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc> <bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc> To:
> >> >> seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org Sent: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:43:32 -0500 Subject: Re:
> >> >> Field welding
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I realize that there are code provisions that may be questionable as
> >> >> to their wisdom in the fulness of time, but that's true of virtually
> >> >> any human endeavor.
> >> >>
> >> >> Certainly they are less arbitrary than many--if not most--of the
> >> >> decisions handed down by the U.S. Ninth Circuit.
> >> >>
> >> >>
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