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RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

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Yes it could happen. Will it? If there is anything of value within the
structure, no, the doors will be closed. If it's a vacant building,
perhaps some homeless person will be able to jimmy one door open.

In general, the contents of a structure are more valuable than the
structure itself. A structure's purpose is to shelter. A code level
storm event will usually shut down work at said location, and the last
guy or gal out, knowing that a storms a brewing, would close the windows
and doors to protect the valuable contents of the building.

That being said, sure, you can design it for whatever you want. The
intent of the code, as someone already pointed out, is that you don't
need to consider this to meet code. The windows are supposed to be able
to resist the wind forces. Doors made of steel, wood, glass are
"designed" to the same level as the building if the structure is to meet
code.

If some flying object in a wind storm were to strike a window, it will
break, yes. What I am saying is that no structure, unless specifically
required by the client, needs to be designed for your scenario because
if it were true, they wouldn't even have the open or partially enclosed
provision in the code. Most houses, retail building, office building
etc, that has a windows and doors on at least one side would meet your
criteria. Architects like windows and doors, so most modern structures
have lots of em.

A partially enclosed structure has permanent openings or perhaps a
hanger structure that has huge doors that may stay open in large events,
but even those, they would likely close the doors once the planes are
inside.

-gm

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian S Bossley [mailto:BSBossley(--nospam--at)venturaengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:14 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

If I were designing a high rise building, I think that I would have
impact resistant windows and no roll-up doors (at least not in the upper
floors).

I thought that we were talking about windows and door that are not
designed to resist the code required wind loads.  I simply further
pointed out that a door or window in an industrial facility could be
open during a storm and that I would consider it open.  You obviously
would not, and that's fine - I'm not telling you that you should.

Also, if it were a series of roll up doors along one side of the
building, I'm sure that I would (beyond making sure that the doors could
withstand the wind forces independently) look at a case of at least a
few of those doors being open in a full-wind condition.  Will it happen?
It could.

- Brian Bossley

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:35 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

I would argue that in a big storm, the big roll up door will be closed
and since it's steel, it won't break like glass.

Your assumption would translate to any building and would be too
conservative. In a curtain wall system, the glass can break just the
same as a window in a low rise building. It's no different except the
engineer designing the curtain wall system is designing the framing and
connections to the superstructure, not the glass. They don't do wind
tunnel tests for high rises with one side open to simulate a loss of the
exterior skin (well, not for engineering design purposes).

By your method, every single structure would be a partially enclosed
structure unless it's underground.

-gm



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian S Bossley [mailto:BSBossley(--nospam--at)venturaengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:25 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

Well, I guess it comes down to engineering judgement.  If we're talking
about a curtain wall system or any permanent window that is designed to
resist the wind forces (as it SHOULD be), then I would say that it is
not an opening.  If it's a door or window that can be left open, I would
consider it an opening and design the structure for the appropriate wind
loads required by code.  I know that it is probably being a little
conservative, but I think that it's a realistic scenario.  But then,
that's me.

- Brian Bossley



-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:02 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

What do you do for a building with a curtain wall system? Designed the
whole structure as partially enclosed in case the curtain fails?

Seems way too conservative to me.

-gm

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian S Bossley [mailto:BSBossley(--nospam--at)venturaengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:53 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

Even if the door IS designed for the correct forces under chapter 16,
there is no guarantee that the door will not be left open during a
storm, either.  And in a lot of industrial facilities, with trucks going
in and out, the big dock doors pretty much stay open all day.  So I
still think I would consider it an opening in calculating my wind loads.

 - Brian Bossley

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Holcomb [mailto:bholcomb(--nospam--at)brpae.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:15 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

Doors and windows are supposed to be designed to resist the
code-prescribed loads-

2000 IBC:
"1403.4 Structural.  Exterior walls, and the associated openings shall
be designed and constructed to resist safely the superimposed loads
required by Chapter 16."

 
BDH
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian S Bossley [mailto:BSBossley(--nospam--at)venturaengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:07 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

I always consider doors and windows as openings when looking at wind
(both MWFRS and components and cladding) for exactly that reason.  If
the window breaks or a door gets ripped off its hinges in a storm, it IS
an opening. So it's quite possible that you would have to consider it a
partially enclosed building.

 - Brian Bossley

-----Original Message-----
From: Kestner, James W. [mailto:jkestner(--nospam--at)somervilleinc.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:52 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows

How should we take in account doors and windows that are not designed or
built for a design wind load? Does this mean, we need to classify those
buildings as partially enclosed and design the exterior walls as such.

Jim K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Ritter [mailto:riter(--nospam--at)jar.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:40 PM
To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org'
Subject: RE: Questions re: Doors & Windows




-----Original Message-----
From:	Gary Hodgson & Associates [SMTP:ghodgson(--nospam--at)bellnet.ca]
Sent:	Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:08 AM
To:	seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject:	Questions re:  Doors & Windows

1.	In a large industrial building (not mine), a large truck door
panel buckled in a high wind.  When I reviewed it, the door did not
meed code loading requirements.  The door supplier and manufacturer
both maintain that the door does not have to meet the code as it is
not part of the building.  The code says building accessories and
components must meet code requirements.  Lots of argument ensued.

Cheers,
Gary

Interesting. What do you do with a high speed high door in a
refrigerated
food warehouse? They may have a steel roller for when no-one is actually

working in the warehouse, but for the time they are, the high speed
door,
which may also have a break-away feature, is just there to keep the
breeze
and heat out and the cold in. Many of those operations are round the
clock.
Do you design as if there is no door at all, just the opening?

Chuck Ritter
JAR Associates, Inc
401-294-4589
401-294-3826 fax


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