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Harold,
What is of interest to me is that I watched a documentary on the 
Hyatt collapse in which it was stated that state or city officials
or code officials or state licensing officials were also shown the
door.  I am sorry for being vague but it was brief and by the time
I snapped to full attention the program had gone on.
   I am interested because I believe the situation here
that prompted this discussion has been caused by our Professional
Engineers of Ontario allowing consultants to continue with their
sloppy ways.
Gary

On 31 Dec 2005 at 19:54, Harold Sprague wrote:

> Dave,
> This is partly an issue of regional practice.  I have been a detailer
> in my earlier life on projects all over the US, and since 1980, I
> design projects across the US and throughout the world.  The bottom
> line is that the integrity of the design is the sole responsibility of
> the engineer of record.  Now if he chooses to allow a guy on the
> street with a sign that says "Will detail for food" to do his steel
> design, that is his prerogative. 
>   But he is NOT relieved of the responsibility for the design.
> 
> On the US West Coast, the practice is for the engineer to design
> practically everything and show it on the contract drawings.  It goes
> more to a performance spec for common connection details as you move
> to the east.  But the engineer remains responsible.
> 
> The engineer was ultimately held responsible for the connections of
> the Hyatt walkways.  The engineer of record lost his license to
> practice in the State of Missouri... forever.  The detailer just kept
> on detailing steel.  The board for professional licensure and the
> disciplinary hearing judge made the correct call.
> 
> Complicating the matter is that the stability of the connection is a
> function of the size of the framing members.  I could envision
> increasing the framing member sizes to preclude stiffeners, and this
> is often cost effective.  This is the function of the engineer of
> record, or those subordinates working for him.
> 
> Bottom line.. I do all of the design for stiffeners, and show it on
> the drawings.  I also do the economic analysis to see if it is cheaper
> to use full height, fitted stiffeners or increase the member size to
> preclude the use of stiffeners.  I will even cost out and design for
> partial height stiffeners, because they are more economical than full
> height fitted stiffeners.  The engineer of record needs to do the work
> for a complete structural design.
> 
> What other critical structural elements would become the domain of the
> detailer.  Anchor bolts, doubler plates, diaphragm connections, etc.? 
> Where does it end?
> 
> Regards,
> Harold Sprague
> 
> >From: "dave lowen" <jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >Subject: Details
> >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:00:26 -0500
> >
> >Comments, please.
> >
> >
> >
> >When designing 'big box' buildings, engineers sometimes (at least in
> >this area of North America) do not indicate that web stiffeners are
> >required for beams that cantilever over columns. In many cases,
> >stiffeners are not required but the fabricator and detailer have no
> >way of knowing this. Some fabricators and detailers share the view
> >that if you didn't 'call for it', they will not 'quote it' and you
> >will not 'get it'. Beam and column stiffeners are a high priced item
> >and can make or break a bid.
> >
> >In discussion with a local engineer, I find his position on the
> >matter is "it is the fabricators responsibility to determine if
> >stiffeners are required and supply them, if needed". His position on
> >this matter is similar to beam/column moment connections; the design
> >of column flange and web stiffeners is also the fabricators
> >responsibility. His thinking is that this area falls under the scope
> >of connection design.
> >
> >If the engineering drawings provided loads, I would be inclined to
> >agree with this position but most engineers don't supply them so it
> >is impossible to any calcs. Also, the majority of engineers around
> >here will not provide any loads when asked. I think their insurance
> >providers tell them not to.
> >
> >In many states, connection design must accompany the contract
> >documents but for those jurisdictions that do not, what are your
> >views? Do you leave these tasks up to the bidder or fabricator?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Dave Lowen
> >
> >V 519 587 5797
> >
> >F 519 587 5138
> >
> >E jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com
> >
> >
> >
> 
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