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RE: Details

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Dave,
I spoke to the same jackass at PEO as you did and he said
the same thing.  I called the government code people and 
they said he was on some weird medication. I called him
back and he said "Oh, sorry about that"
Gary


On 2 Jan 2006 at 12:03, dave lowen wrote:

> My thanks to Gary, Charlie and all the others for adding their views.
> 
> A year ago, I complained to the PEO about the pathetic drawings I
> received from an engineer down the street from you.
> 
> The legal department informed me that although S16.1 is THE code, it
> is not THE law and the profession does not have to abide by it. They
> further told me that the EOR could legally supply only pictures with
> member sizes. No loads, no dimensions, no elevations, no grid lines
> and no details!
> 
> I will certainly discuss the issue with them again.
> 
> Dave
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Hodgson & Associates [mailto:ghodgson(--nospam--at)bellnet.ca] 
> Sent: January 2, 2006 9:36 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Details
> 
> Dave,
> 
> I was rather too quick to send off my message below.  After reading
> Charlie Carter's email, I wanted to point out that CSA S16.1,
> "Canadian Standard for Steel Structures" has Clause 4.2 "Strucutural
> Design Documents" which contains Clause 4.2.2 requirements for the
> design documents.  Among the items this includes are:  
> 
> (l) The governing combination of shears, moments, axial forces and
> torsion to be resisted by the connections;  
> 
> (m) The size and location of stiffeners, reinforcement, and bracing
> required to stabilize compression elements;  
> 
> The failure of your design engineer to indicate the stiffeners 
> violates (m) and his lack of forces violates (l).  
> 
> I think this makes him guilty of mis-conduct, i.e., failure to obey
> all codes and statutes.  He may also be in conflict with the code of
> ethics - failure to co-operate in providing information necessary to
> help complete the job.  
> 
> Having said all that, many Canadian consultants ignore the above
> clauses - they think that if they give you the dead load and snow
> load, they have given enough.  
> 
> There have been enough complaints about this that the Professional
> Engineers of Ontario will be addressing the issue in a big meeting in
> February.  You should definitely send your complaint to them.  
> 
> My position is that the fabricator cannot include stiffeners, etc., in
> his quote unless the designer shows them or indicates that they may be
> required along with a note including the imposed forces so that the
> fabricator can size them.  
> 
> Given the forces on a connection, I can determine whether stiffeners
> are required in a few minutes using a spreadsheet I set up.  
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Gary
> 
> 
> On 31 Dec 2005 at 9:18, Gary Hodgson & Associates wrote:
> 
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -- ---- Your following message has been delivered to the list
> >   seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org at 06:20:25 on 31 Dec 2005.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -- ----
> > 
> > 
> > Dave
> > I am with you on this issue. The Canadian consultants
> > are just plain lazy or ignorant.  I have been on both
> > sides of the issue-consultant and fabricator. I say that
> > no fabricator can bid the job properly unless there is
> > at least an indication that stiffeners may be required
> > so the fabricator can at least state whether he has
> > included them or not.  As a consultant, I find it just
> > as easy to design and show them rather than go through
> > the later arguments
> > Gary
> > 
> > On 30 Dec 2005 at 21:00, dave lowen wrote:
> > 
> > > Comments, please.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > When designing 'big box' buildings, engineers sometimes (at least
> > > in this area of North America) do not indicate that web stiffeners
> > > are required for beams that cantilever over columns. In many
> > > cases, stiffeners are not required but the fabricator and detailer
> > > have no way of knowing this. Some fabricators and detailers share
> > > the view that if you didn't 'call for it', they will not 'quote
> > > it' and you will not 'get it'. Beam and column stiffeners are a
> > > high priced item and can make or break a bid.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > In discussion with a local engineer, I find his position on the
> > > matter is "it is the fabricators responsibility to determine if
> > > stiffeners are required and supply them, if needed". His position
> > > on this matter is similar to beam/column moment connections; the
> > > design of column flange and web stiffeners is also the fabricators
> > > responsibility. His thinking is that this area falls under the
> > > scope of connection design.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If the engineering drawings provided loads, I would be inclined to
> > > agree with this position but most engineers don't supply them so
> > > it is impossible to any calcs. Also, the majority of engineers
> > > around here will not provide any loads when asked. I think their
> > > insurance providers tell them not to.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > In many states, connection design must accompany the contract
> > > documents but for those jurisdictions that do not, what are your
> > > views? Do you leave these tasks up to the bidder or fabricator?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Dave Lowen
> > > 
> > > V 519 587 5797
> > > 
> > > F 519 587 5138
> > > 
> > > E jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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