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Re: We're Not Getting Older, We're Getting DUMBER [WAS: Any Young Engineers Out There?]

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Bill,

Now we are on the same page.  When I say that ASD lives, it is largely in
name only.  You are 100% correct in that the ASD that people will see in
the 2005 spec will not look all that much like what they are used to
seeing...and this is point that I have been trying to get across in my
posts today.

The response below was to point out that the issue of ASD in steel is not
like WSD in concrete.  In the case of WSD in concrete, it was technically
completely removed from ACI 318-02.  While in essence one could argue that
the 2005 AISC spec essentially "removes" ASD as most know it, technically
ASD still lives (albeit in a drastically "mutated" way).  As such, there
will be little chance that the codes will "allow" legacy design per older
ASD methods...cause the point is that we WILL have an ASD design even if
it is drastically different than what we may think of as ASD.  In
concrete, there is a logical arguement that one should still be permitted
to design per WSD as the member doesn't know whether it was designed by
WSD or Strength Design.  The issue in concrete is that technically there
are no longer any WSD provisions in current code...be it sadly outdated
provisions or not.

So, I agree 100% that people may "regret" getting what they wanted...that
is they wanted ASD to stay alive, but when they see where ASD is going/has
gone, they may not like it too much.  In reality, what people really
likely wanted (as you alluded to) was to keep using what they are used to
using...the dated, old 1989 ASD spec.  My point is that I doubt that there
will be any code provisions that allow the continued use of the 1989 ASD
spec, unless one continues to use old model buildings codes (i.e. 2003 IBC
or earlier).  So, people need to get used to the idea that they will be
"forced" to learn the update ASD that is in the 2005 AISC spec and thus in
the 13th edition manual...and thus, in essence, they will be learning LRFD
whether they like it or not.  :-)

And FWIW, Charlie Carter has been warning those of us on the list for
QUITE a while that when ASD was updated, we might not be as fond of it as
we are under the 1989 ASD spec.

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Polhemus, Bill wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
>
> Now, the situation will be different in steel.  ASD is _NOT_ being
> eliminated or even reduced to a bastard, step child.  AISC tried to do
> that (so to speak) and lost the battle.  They have "surrendered" and ASD
> will live (and does live in 2005 spec).
> -----/Original Message-----
>
> With respect, I believe this is misleading.
>
> I believe that people are in for a rude awakening if they think that
> their old, familiar ASD method is still in place in the 13th Edition.
> And to the extent they begin to realize what lies in store, we're in for
> some major bellyaching from people who don't want to change what they're
> doing--the same people who forced their young colleagues and new
> employees into "relearning" steel design when they got out into the
> world of work.
>
> Here's a simple exercise. Go to: http://tinyurl.com/cuwju [Points to the
> PDF version of the new design specification]. Check out "TABLE User Note
> F1.1" found on page 45 of the new code. Take a long look. Study it.
>
> You're going to have to incorporate this new knowledge regarding "limit
> states" for various section geometries and bending cases, and you're
> going to have to CHECK these limit states--EVEN IF YOU'RE USING ASD.
>
> What many practicing engineers who've refused to even consider updating
> their knowledge-set fail to understand about the LRFD standards
> published since 1986 is that they are about a h*ll of a lot more than
> "equations that look different." They chronicle an evolving theory of
> steel design based upon ongoing research and a whole lotta committee
> work.
>
> These practicing engineers have chosen to IGNORE this evolution, and now
> reality's about to bite 'em in the glutes.
>
> The reason I wanted to go to LRFD years back is, I realized all this
> stuff was going on, and the longer I put off learning about it the more
> antiquated my knowledge was going to be.
>
> Sort of like the two "retirees" I heard in conversation a few years
> back, talking about calculating "bond stress" in rebar to check
> development length. Their conversation was irrelevant because it had
> nothing to do with current practice!
>
> One of the things that annoys me about my structural engineer community
> is, we want the respect as a "learned profession," but too many of us
> don't want to make the effort to stay "learned!"
>
> [ABANDONING SOAP-BOX]
>
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