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RE: FW: Precision in engineering calculations

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I'm gonna have to ask you to move your stuff over to the boiler room.
Yeah... see, we've got some boxes we need to put right here... great
thanks.

(not so slyly confiscates red stapler)

:-)
-gm

-----Original Message-----
From: Honles, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Honles(--nospam--at)ladwp.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:12 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: FW: Precision in engineering calculations

Good use of red stapler.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:52 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: FW: Precision in engineering calculations


Ever seen the movie Office Space? Good use of rounding.

-gm

-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:18 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: FW: Precision in engineering calculations

I routinely drop two digits of precision every year on my taxes, and the

IRS is fine with it.  I only use whole dollars, and the IRS suggests
doing so.

In fact, I've been known to simply ignore $50 in my accounting. My wife,

who is controller of a medium sized corporation, has even done that with

much larger figures, and has had audits which have upheld her
"rounding".   In the financial world, it's known as whether or not the
amount is material.  For a small firm like mine, everything over $100 is

material. For a large corporation, several thousand dollars may not be
material (though it often is).

To believe that you have as much accuracy as you have precision will
lead you into dangerous waters.  A caliper that reads in hundredths
(that's 0.00001") won't do you any good if it's not zeroed, and your
measurement won't be very repeatable if you're holding the gauge block
in your hand while you take the measurement.

I would tend to side with Tim's professors in this one.  Now, if someone

could talk to my fundamentals of engineering professor about the 5
points I lost for placing the middle horizontal line of  a capital "E"
slightly below the center of the vertical line, rather than slightly
above, I'm right there with you!

Jordan

Ray Pixley wrote:

> Those teachers were (1) wrong to do that, (2) short sighted, (3)
> unprofessional, and (4) think a slide rule is a high tech bell and
> whistle device. But that's life when they have that much power over
you.
>
> Anyway, significant figures are an issue if you are looking for a
> number that is the difference between two numbers that are nearly the
> same.  When subtraction is being used, it matters.  (Maybe other
> operations also.)   If you don't have enough significant figures, you
> get garbage.  No amount of tap dancing justification will be able to
> overcome that deficiency.
>
> Now, ask those so called "teachers" if they round their taxes up to
> the next thousand dollars, simply because it is "approximately" what
> is due.  Ask if when they see a penny on the street, do they pick it
> up or consider it worthless?  If not a penny then what about a dime?
> A quarter?
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Timothy Allison" <t_allison(--nospam--at)illinoisalumni.org>
> Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Subject: Re: FW: Precision in engineering calculations
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:08:16 -0800
>
> We were taught significant figures (and how to use them) in school.  A
> couple teachers would go so far as to deduct a point or two for using
> too many sig figs.  In practice, I ignore the rules and take it out to
a
> "clean" number - your example of 12319.82 vs. 12300 would be 12320 to
> me.
>
> I do agree with your thought that calculators give a false sense of
> accuracy.  If you take something simple like "25000 - 12000", you're
> still entering five digits regardless of there possibly being as few
as
> two significant figures, so writing the result with five significant
> figures is kind of a natural reaction.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sherman, William [mailto:ShermanWC(--nospam--at)cdm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:53 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Precision in engineering calculations
>
> Do engineering schools still teach the concept of "significant digits"
> in design calculations? I generally like to show results to 3
> significant digits (e.g., 12,300 lbs vs 12,319.82 lbs); although I
> consider the real accuracy probably closer to 2 digits for most design
> work. But I find that young engineers often show results such as
123.47
> ft-kips. There are occasions when more significant digits are
> warranted, such as when subtracting two large numbers, e.g. 12,319 lbs
> minus 11,898 lbs. But most of the time such accuracy in numbers is not
> warranted. For manual calculations, I feel that it takes extra time to
> enter and write those extra digits, and it implies a greater accuracy
> than is reality.
>
> When I started college in 1970, I used that ancient device called a
> slide rule. By the time I graduated, I could afford one of those
> new-fangled calculators. I think that having to use a slide-rule gave
> me a better understanding of significant digits, whereas calculators
and
> computers give people a false sense of design accuracy.
>
> Nevertheless, I once did some design work for nuclear power projects
and
> was told that if my results showed a calculated stress of 24.1 ksi vs
an
> allowable stress of 24 ksi, the member size would need to be
increased.
> But that was less about accuracy and more about fear that someone
would
> report that the design indicated that some members were
"overstressed".
>
>
> William C. Sherman, PE
> (Bill Sherman)
> CDM, Denver, CO
> Phone: 303-298-1311
> Fax: 303-293-8236
> email: shermanwc(--nospam--at)cdm.com
>
> Scott Maxwell wrote:
>
> "And I agree with you on the whole knat's rear arguement...it is not
> needed or even warranted frequently in the "structural world". And it
> is many times not even useful in repeative situations...in steel
design,
> one usually saves more money by having the same beam over and over and
> over again rather than getting the absolute lightest members possible.
> Not to mention that the concrete actually used likely is not going to
> have the exact f'c that you used in design nor the steel to have the
> exact fy that you used. So, doing precise calculations to some 5th
> decimal place (although it does somewhat depend on the units used) is
> typically a waste of time. I learned that one back in school when my
> concrete professor "yelled" at me for using two or more decimal places
> in my homeworks and pointed out that if my capacity was within roughly
> 5% or less of demand, I was likely "good to go"."
>
>
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