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RE: Welding Failures

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It depends on what "all this stuff" you are referencing. The bevel angle, root opening, etc. are supposed to be on the detail drawings. The shop may grind the bevel or cut the bevel with a track burner. The filler metal and preheat are in the welding procedures.

Regards,
Harold Sprague





From: "Garner, Robert" <rgarner(--nospam--at)moffattnichol.com>
Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Subject: RE: Welding Failures
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:05:21 -0700


Isn't all this stuff supposed to be in the welding procedures
specifications?  A W.P.S. is required by AWS and this is what I usually
rely on.  Even for field welding, I walk up to the welder and ask to see
the W.P.S. for the welds he is making.  A good welder usually pulls out
a folded 8 1/2 x 11 data sheet with speeds and feeds, amps and other
welder settings, electrode specs and everything else.  If a welder
doesn't know what I'm talking about, I advise the foreman the work is
not in conformance with AWS D1.1 and I have to so advise the owner.

Bob Garner

-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:53 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Welding Failures

Your are correct.  The filler metal is not on the weld symbol, and
preheat
is in the weld procedures.

My observation (and it varies with the shop) is that I will show on the
structural contract drawings the generic CJP symbol.  When I get the
detail
drawings back, they often times show the same generic symbol.  That is
OK
for a fillet weld, but not a CJP weld.

I want to see all of the information on the shop drawings regarding
throat
thickness, finish, bevel angle, single/ double sided, root opening,
backing,
position, shielding, process, etc.   A lot of ambiguity goes away with
indicating the joint designation in the tail.  That is a detailed
prequalified weld.

I have had occasion that the shop drawings indicated a B-U3c-S (which is
a
sub arc) for a vertical weld in the field.  Obviously that is a mistake
in
that sub arc welds can only be done in a flat position.  Just showing
CJP
would not have allowed me to catch it.  That is the kind of thing I was
writing about.

Regards,
Harold Sprague





>From: "dave lowen" <jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Welding Failures
>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:25:42 -0400
>
>Harold,
>
>I think we may be talking about 2 different things. You mentioned in
your
>first post that you wanted to see the heat and filler metal on the weld
>symbol. The AWS makes no provision for adding this information to a
weld
>symbol.
>
>Shop fabrication drawings traditionally have the material grade(s) and
the
>electrode(s) required listed in the B/M or notes. If they don't, they
>should
>have.
>
>I have never come across a shop drawing that specified pre heat or post
>heat.
>
>Regards,
>Dave
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
>Sent: April 9, 2006 8:30 PM
>To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>Subject: RE: Welding Failures
>
>Dave,
>This is NOT a duplication of effort.  The contract documents prepared
by
>the
>
>structural engineer indicate what the structural engineer intends.  The

>shop
>
>drawings indicate the structural steel details including welding
details.
>When the structural engineer indicates a CJP, he does not know what
welding
>procedure will be used, what filler metal will be used, or what preheat

>will
>
>be used.  That is the prerogative of the shop and is for the preparer
of
>the
>
>shop drawings to indicate.
>
>When I get shop drawings just saying CJP, I reject them.  I want to see

>that
>
>the shop has a detailed welding procedure.  The welder will need the
>welding
>
>detail and procedure as will the welding inspector.
>
>If that exercise would have happened on the Hyatt Regency walkways, a
>competent detailer would have seen that it was impossible to get a butt

>weld
>
>CJP weld on the toe to toe channel.  It MAY not have prevented the
>disaster,
>
>but it would have forced the steel detailers and the structural
engineer to
>take a more detailed look at the connection.
>
> >From 1975 until 1980 I worked as a steel detailer.  When I saw the
symbol
>for any type of CJP, I would detail the weld.  I would indicate the
>procedure, the angle of the bevel, the finish, the backer, run off
tabs,
>the
>
>root opening, etc.  In the shop the inspector would check the root
opening,
>the tolerances, the filler rod, the backing, etc.  The welder would
mark
>his
>
>weld.  The shop inspector would verify the NDT inspectors
qualifications
>per
>
>AWS.  The NDT inspector would run his probe over the weld to verify
that
>there were no weld discontinuities.  As you can tell from the dates,
this
>is
>
>nothing new.
>
>Regards,
>Harold Sprague
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "dave lowen" <jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >Subject: RE: Welding Failures
> >Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:32:23 -0400
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Apr 9, 2006, at 1:25 AM, Harold Sprague wrote:
> >
> > > Personally, I expect the detailed weld symbol to show the
procedure,
> > > the bevel, the preparation, the heat, the filler metal, etc.  And
I
> > > check them.  Maybe I am a bit particular, but I have worked in
about
> > > every area of structural steel and I am more than a bit cautious.
> >
> >
> >Harold
> >
> >What you are asking for is a duplication of effort. Putting a weld
> >procedure
> >number on a weld symbol is a great idea and to my mind should be
>mandatory.
> >
> >But, the procedure itself contains all of the variables that you
mention
> >i.e.; electrode, base metal, bevel angle, max thickness, position,
wire
> >feed, gas flow etc. Also, the AWS does not require that much info on
the
> >symbol.
> >
> >Up here in the great white north, ALL shops doing structural work
MUST be
> >sanctioned by the welding bureau, MUST have at the least, a retained
> >welding
> >engineer, MUST have one or more designated welding supervisors having
> >passed
> >at least 5 different bureau exams and MUST have on hand a catalogue
of
>all
> >the welding procedures the shop is allowed to do. Welding operators
MUST
> >have tickets for each weld procedure they are allowed to do. Each
ticket
>is
> >issued only after the operator has been physically tested and his
weld
> >specimens have been tested. It becomes shop property, if the operator

>goes
> >to work in another shop, he/she must be retested.
> >
> >In shops I have managed, fitters were required to draw the weld
symbol on
> >the steel in chalk as most welding operators could not read drawings.
The
> >welding supervisor would then check the chalk mark with the drawing
and
> >then
> >check the weld for conformity. Incidents of misinterpretation were
> >extremely
> >rare.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
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