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RE: Welding Failures

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"All this stuff" was indeed a poor phrase.  My apologies.  Better to say
those items noted on Form E-1 in Appendix E of AWS D1.1

This form also has boxes in which to specify root openings, groove
angles and of course, other welding items.  Agreed that the weld symbols
must be correct and appropriate.

Bob Garner

-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:14 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Welding Failures

It depends on what "all this stuff" you are referencing.  The bevel
angle,
root opening, etc. are supposed to be on the detail drawings.  The shop
may
grind the bevel or cut the bevel with a track burner.  The filler metal
and
preheat are in the welding procedures.

Regards,
Harold Sprague





>From: "Garner, Robert" <rgarner(--nospam--at)moffattnichol.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Welding Failures
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:05:21 -0700
>
>
>Isn't all this stuff supposed to be in the welding procedures
>specifications?  A W.P.S. is required by AWS and this is what I usually
>rely on.  Even for field welding, I walk up to the welder and ask to
see
>the W.P.S. for the welds he is making.  A good welder usually pulls out
>a folded 8 1/2 x 11 data sheet with speeds and feeds, amps and other
>welder settings, electrode specs and everything else.  If a welder
>doesn't know what I'm talking about, I advise the foreman the work is
>not in conformance with AWS D1.1 and I have to so advise the owner.
>
>Bob Garner
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:53 PM
>To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>Subject: RE: Welding Failures
>
>Your are correct.  The filler metal is not on the weld symbol, and
>preheat
>is in the weld procedures.
>
>My observation (and it varies with the shop) is that I will show on the
>structural contract drawings the generic CJP symbol.  When I get the
>detail
>drawings back, they often times show the same generic symbol.  That is
>OK
>for a fillet weld, but not a CJP weld.
>
>I want to see all of the information on the shop drawings regarding
>throat
>thickness, finish, bevel angle, single/ double sided, root opening,
>backing,
>position, shielding, process, etc.   A lot of ambiguity goes away with
>indicating the joint designation in the tail.  That is a detailed
>prequalified weld.
>
>I have had occasion that the shop drawings indicated a B-U3c-S (which
is
>a
>sub arc) for a vertical weld in the field.  Obviously that is a mistake
>in
>that sub arc welds can only be done in a flat position.  Just showing
>CJP
>would not have allowed me to catch it.  That is the kind of thing I was
>writing about.
>
>Regards,
>Harold Sprague
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "dave lowen" <jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >Subject: RE: Welding Failures
> >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:25:42 -0400
> >
> >Harold,
> >
> >I think we may be talking about 2 different things. You mentioned in
>your
> >first post that you wanted to see the heat and filler metal on the
weld
> >symbol. The AWS makes no provision for adding this information to a
>weld
> >symbol.
> >
> >Shop fabrication drawings traditionally have the material grade(s)
and
>the
> >electrode(s) required listed in the B/M or notes. If they don't, they
> >should
> >have.
> >
> >I have never come across a shop drawing that specified pre heat or
post
> >heat.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
> >Sent: April 9, 2006 8:30 PM
> >To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> >Subject: RE: Welding Failures
> >
> >Dave,
> >This is NOT a duplication of effort.  The contract documents prepared
>by
> >the
> >
> >structural engineer indicate what the structural engineer intends.
The
>
> >shop
> >
> >drawings indicate the structural steel details including welding
>details.
> >When the structural engineer indicates a CJP, he does not know what
>welding
> >procedure will be used, what filler metal will be used, or what
preheat
>
> >will
> >
> >be used.  That is the prerogative of the shop and is for the preparer
>of
> >the
> >
> >shop drawings to indicate.
> >
> >When I get shop drawings just saying CJP, I reject them.  I want to
see
>
> >that
> >
> >the shop has a detailed welding procedure.  The welder will need the
> >welding
> >
> >detail and procedure as will the welding inspector.
> >
> >If that exercise would have happened on the Hyatt Regency walkways, a
> >competent detailer would have seen that it was impossible to get a
butt
>
> >weld
> >
> >CJP weld on the toe to toe channel.  It MAY not have prevented the
> >disaster,
> >
> >but it would have forced the steel detailers and the structural
>engineer to
> >take a more detailed look at the connection.
> >
> > >From 1975 until 1980 I worked as a steel detailer.  When I saw the
>symbol
> >for any type of CJP, I would detail the weld.  I would indicate the
> >procedure, the angle of the bevel, the finish, the backer, run off
>tabs,
> >the
> >
> >root opening, etc.  In the shop the inspector would check the root
>opening,
> >the tolerances, the filler rod, the backing, etc.  The welder would
>mark
> >his
> >
> >weld.  The shop inspector would verify the NDT inspectors
>qualifications
> >per
> >
> >AWS.  The NDT inspector would run his probe over the weld to verify
>that
> >there were no weld discontinuities.  As you can tell from the dates,
>this
> >is
> >
> >nothing new.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Harold Sprague
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "dave lowen" <jatech(--nospam--at)kwic.com>
> > >Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> > >To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> > >Subject: RE: Welding Failures
> > >Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:32:23 -0400
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Apr 9, 2006, at 1:25 AM, Harold Sprague wrote:
> > >
> > > > Personally, I expect the detailed weld symbol to show the
>procedure,
> > > > the bevel, the preparation, the heat, the filler metal, etc.
And
>I
> > > > check them.  Maybe I am a bit particular, but I have worked in
>about
> > > > every area of structural steel and I am more than a bit
cautious.
> > >
> > >
> > >Harold
> > >
> > >What you are asking for is a duplication of effort. Putting a weld
> > >procedure
> > >number on a weld symbol is a great idea and to my mind should be
> >mandatory.
> > >
> > >But, the procedure itself contains all of the variables that you
>mention
> > >i.e.; electrode, base metal, bevel angle, max thickness, position,
>wire
> > >feed, gas flow etc. Also, the AWS does not require that much info
on
>the
> > >symbol.
> > >
> > >Up here in the great white north, ALL shops doing structural work
>MUST be
> > >sanctioned by the welding bureau, MUST have at the least, a
retained
> > >welding
> > >engineer, MUST have one or more designated welding supervisors
having
> > >passed
> > >at least 5 different bureau exams and MUST have on hand a catalogue
>of
> >all
> > >the welding procedures the shop is allowed to do. Welding operators
>MUST
> > >have tickets for each weld procedure they are allowed to do. Each
>ticket
> >is
> > >issued only after the operator has been physically tested and his
>weld
> > >specimens have been tested. It becomes shop property, if the
operator
>
> >goes
> > >to work in another shop, he/she must be retested.
> > >
> > >In shops I have managed, fitters were required to draw the weld
>symbol on
> > >the steel in chalk as most welding operators could not read
drawings.
>The
> > >welding supervisor would then check the chalk mark with the drawing
>and
> > >then
> > >check the weld for conformity. Incidents of misinterpretation were
> > >extremely
> > >rare.
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
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