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RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?

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Lawyers have what amounts to a seven year education. Doctors, an eight year
education plus internship and residency. Engineers, only a paltry four. I
believe that engineering degrees should be at least a five year program.
Some schools actually are a five year program, or were. I think Cal Poly San
Luis Obispo had a five year program for architectural engineering, or was it
architecture? I don't remember. 

A four year degree only gives a very basic set of tools. If I hadn't
petitioned to take a number of graduate courses I wouldn't have learned
about concrete columns, masonry, wood, post-tensioned design or steel moment
resisting frames among other things. 

A five year program should be the minimum.

Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
Burkett & Wong
San Diego, CA 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:51 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> 
> Bill:
> 
> Call me dumb, but I did not quite get whether that meant you wanted to
> hear reasons why it considered necessary and why I don't really "buy"
> those reasons.
> 
> FWIW, do let me point out that I do STRONGLY believe that a Master's
> degree is a worthwhile and very useful thing and that many engineers can
> (and ultimately do) gain significant benefit from attaining a Master's
> degree.  I just don't think that it should be required in order to obtain
> a license.  As a case, in point, I do have my Master's degree and got it
> right after my Bachelor's degree (and actually have worked toward a PhD),
> so I do feel that (advanced) education is important and very useful.  But,
> it was MY choice to get my advanced degrees.  And it was a good
> choice...for me.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott
> Adrian, MI
> 
> 
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 bcainse(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Scott-
> > We'll take it in installements since you've now "rung the bell."  :<)
> > Regards,
> > Bill Cain, S.E.
> > Berkeley CA
> >
> > Scott Maxwell wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > <snip> ....
> >  I would address the various "excuses" for
> > why this is necessary, but don't want to waste people's time unless
> there
> > is a desire for the debate here.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Scott
> > Adrian, MI
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Caldwell, Stan wrote:
> >
> > > Scott & Bill:
> > >
> > > As a current member of the ASCE Board of Direction, I can personally
> attest
> > that the second rule of ASCE conduct is "Thou shall not compete with the
> ASCE
> > members and their employers."  [The first rule, of course, is "Thou
> shall not
> > violate the ASCE Code of Ethics."]  This policy, more than any other, is
> why the
> > ASCE Board voted to dissolve the Civil Engineering Research Foundation
> (CERF)
> > last January.  In fact, I was one of the three directors assigned to
> write the
> > report that led to that decision.
> > >
> > > From time to time, various public agencies ask ASCE to lead
> independent, third
> > party reviews of substantial civil engineering issues.  The first such
> review
> > might have been in 1872, involving the management of the design and
> construction
> > of the Brooklyn Bridge.  Some recent examples include the bombing of the
> Murrah
> > Federal Building, the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the
> terrorist
> > attack on the Pentagon, and the failure of the levees in New Orleans.
> The
> > Dulles Metrorail Tunnel is merely the most recent such request.
> > >
> > > ASCE responds to these requests by putting together volunteer panels
> of
> > nationally and internationally recognized experts, providing staff
> resources to
> > support their activities, and facilitating their meetings,
> presentations, and
> > publications.  The experts are individuals, not companies.  They work as
> > volunteers with expenses partially reimbursed.  The nominal costs of the
> > independent reviews varies based on the circumstances involved and the
> > requesting agencies are billed for these costs.
> > >
> > > Volunteer service as a professional engineer is a rewarding endeavor
> in many
> > ways, but not financially.  It can also be addictive.  Since last
> October, I
> > have spent an average of 3 days/week and 3 trips/month on ASCE business.
> In
> > return, I receive no compensation beyond partial reimbursement for
> travel
> > expenses.  I am grateful for having a family and an employer that will
> tolerate
> > this for the next three years.  It also explains why the SEAINT Listserv
> is no
> > longer distracted with my off-topic and politically incorrect posts.
> > >
> > > It is easy for a design engineer to sit at his/her computer and
> criticize the
> > nonprofit organizations that serve the needs of engineers.  It is quite
> another
> > thing to get actively involved with one or more of these organizations.
> Such
> > involvement can greatly alter an engineer's perspective.
> > >
> > > Now I must sign off.  Seven emails have arrived from ASCE while I was
> typing
> > this message.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Stan R. Caldwell, P.E., F.ASCE, F.AEI
> > > ASCE Technical Region Director
> > > President, Building Security Council
> > > Vice President, Halff Associates
> > > Dallas, Texas
> > >
> > >
> ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:30 PM
> > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > You hit on something that was "buzzing" in the back of my head during
> this
> > thread...there is nothing in that press statement that the ASCE-led
> panel that
> > would say one way or another if there is compensation involved.  The
> majority of
> > folks that responded assumed that this was something that ASCE was
> contracted to
> > do.  I, however, assumed when I first saw this "news" in my ASCE email
> > newsletter assumed that it was going to be an ASCE-led volunteer panel,
> much
> > like every single ASCE committee is comprised of volunteers that don't
> get paid
> > for their work.  When this thread popped up, I must admit that I went
> back and
> > re-read the news release and I cannot see anything that says one way or
> the
> > other.  Thus, I don't know if it is a paid effort or not.  The only
> thing that I
> > can say is that we may all be potentially guilty of making an assumption
> based
> > upon our preconceived notions of ASCE.  I made a "positive" assumption
> that it
> > was NOT a paid effort, but rather ASCE "volunteering" to help cause I
> generally
> > thing positive things of ASCE (except when you start to talk about their
> whole
> > Master's degree as the first professional degree push).
> > > It appears that you made a "negative" assumption that it was a paid
> effort due
> > to what appears to be your somewhat negative (from my perspective at
> > > least) view of ASCE.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > Adrian, MI
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Polhemus, Bill wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I say this with all due respect to folks like Stan Caldwell, who I
> > > > know act out of a certain sense of altruism. And I don't mean to say
> > > > that business interests are anathema. And further, if I'm
> > > > misunderstanding this--if the individuals or ASCE itself isn't
> getting
> > > > any significant compensation for this and they're doing it out of
> > > > public spiritedness--I profoundly apologize.
> > > >
> > >
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