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RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?

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Three years for my Civil License and two more for my Structural License. I am just talking about putting a little more into the education so the first few years of an engineers career can be a little more productive.

Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
Burkett & Wong
San Diego, CA 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Comfort [mailto:jcomfort(--nospam--at)ggbse.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:19 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> 
> You're right, when you graduate you only have a "basic set of tools", but
> how many years after you earned your degree did you work before you were
> able to sit for your PE?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark E. Deardorff [mailto:mdeardorff(--nospam--at)burkett-wong.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:13 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> 
> 
> Lawyers have what amounts to a seven year education. Doctors, an eight
> year
> education plus internship and residency. Engineers, only a paltry four. I
> believe that engineering degrees should be at least a five year program.
> Some schools actually are a five year program, or were. I think Cal Poly
> San
> Luis Obispo had a five year program for architectural engineering, or was
> it
> architecture? I don't remember.
> 
> A four year degree only gives a very basic set of tools. If I hadn't
> petitioned to take a number of graduate courses I wouldn't have learned
> about concrete columns, masonry, wood, post-tensioned design or steel
> moment
> resisting frames among other things.
> 
> A five year program should be the minimum.
> 
> Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
> Burkett & Wong
> San Diego, CA
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:51 PM
> > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > Subject: Re: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > Call me dumb, but I did not quite get whether that meant you wanted to
> > hear reasons why it considered necessary and why I don't really "buy"
> > those reasons.
> >
> > FWIW, do let me point out that I do STRONGLY believe that a Master's
> > degree is a worthwhile and very useful thing and that many engineers can
> > (and ultimately do) gain significant benefit from attaining a Master's
> > degree.  I just don't think that it should be required in order to
> obtain
> > a license.  As a case, in point, I do have my Master's degree and got it
> > right after my Bachelor's degree (and actually have worked toward a
> PhD),
> > so I do feel that (advanced) education is important and very useful.
> But,
> > it was MY choice to get my advanced degrees.  And it was a good
> > choice...for me.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Scott
> > Adrian, MI
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 bcainse(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Scott-
> > > We'll take it in installements since you've now "rung the bell."  :<)
> > > Regards,
> > > Bill Cain, S.E.
> > > Berkeley CA
> > >
> > > Scott Maxwell wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > <snip> ....
> > >  I would address the various "excuses" for
> > > why this is necessary, but don't want to waste people's time unless
> > there
> > > is a desire for the debate here.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > Adrian, MI
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Caldwell, Stan wrote:
> > >
> > > > Scott & Bill:
> > > >
> > > > As a current member of the ASCE Board of Direction, I can personally
> > attest
> > > that the second rule of ASCE conduct is "Thou shall not compete with
> the
> > ASCE
> > > members and their employers."  [The first rule, of course, is "Thou
> > shall not
> > > violate the ASCE Code of Ethics."]  This policy, more than any other,
> is
> > why the
> > > ASCE Board voted to dissolve the Civil Engineering Research Foundation
> > (CERF)
> > > last January.  In fact, I was one of the three directors assigned to
> > write the
> > > report that led to that decision.
> > > >
> > > > From time to time, various public agencies ask ASCE to lead
> > independent, third
> > > party reviews of substantial civil engineering issues.  The first such
> > review
> > > might have been in 1872, involving the management of the design and
> > construction
> > > of the Brooklyn Bridge.  Some recent examples include the bombing of
> the
> > Murrah
> > > Federal Building, the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the
> > terrorist
> > > attack on the Pentagon, and the failure of the levees in New Orleans.
> > The
> > > Dulles Metrorail Tunnel is merely the most recent such request.
> > > >
> > > > ASCE responds to these requests by putting together volunteer panels
> > of
> > > nationally and internationally recognized experts, providing staff
> > resources to
> > > support their activities, and facilitating their meetings,
> > presentations, and
> > > publications.  The experts are individuals, not companies.  They work
> as
> > > volunteers with expenses partially reimbursed.  The nominal costs of
> the
> > > independent reviews varies based on the circumstances involved and the
> > > requesting agencies are billed for these costs.
> > > >
> > > > Volunteer service as a professional engineer is a rewarding endeavor
> > in many
> > > ways, but not financially.  It can also be addictive.  Since last
> > October, I
> > > have spent an average of 3 days/week and 3 trips/month on ASCE
> business.
> > In
> > > return, I receive no compensation beyond partial reimbursement for
> > travel
> > > expenses.  I am grateful for having a family and an employer that will
> > tolerate
> > > this for the next three years.  It also explains why the SEAINT
> Listserv
> > is no
> > > longer distracted with my off-topic and politically incorrect posts.
> > > >
> > > > It is easy for a design engineer to sit at his/her computer and
> > criticize the
> > > nonprofit organizations that serve the needs of engineers.  It is
> quite
> > another
> > > thing to get actively involved with one or more of these
> organizations.
> > Such
> > > involvement can greatly alter an engineer's perspective.
> > > >
> > > > Now I must sign off.  Seven emails have arrived from ASCE while I
> was
> > typing
> > > this message.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Stan R. Caldwell, P.E., F.ASCE, F.AEI
> > > > ASCE Technical Region Director
> > > > President, Building Security Council
> > > > Vice President, Halff Associates
> > > > Dallas, Texas
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:30 PM
> > > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > > >
> > > > Bill:
> > > >
> > > > You hit on something that was "buzzing" in the back of my head
> during
> > this
> > > thread...there is nothing in that press statement that the ASCE-led
> > panel that
> > > would say one way or another if there is compensation involved.  The
> > majority of
> > > folks that responded assumed that this was something that ASCE was
> > contracted to
> > > do.  I, however, assumed when I first saw this "news" in my ASCE email
> > > newsletter assumed that it was going to be an ASCE-led volunteer
> panel,
> > much
> > > like every single ASCE committee is comprised of volunteers that don't
> > get paid
> > > for their work.  When this thread popped up, I must admit that I went
> > back and
> > > re-read the news release and I cannot see anything that says one way
> or
> > the
> > > other.  Thus, I don't know if it is a paid effort or not.  The only
> > thing that I
> > > can say is that we may all be potentially guilty of making an
> assumption
> > based
> > > upon our preconceived notions of ASCE.  I made a "positive" assumption
> > that it
> > > was NOT a paid effort, but rather ASCE "volunteering" to help cause I
> > generally
> > > thing positive things of ASCE (except when you start to talk about
> their
> > whole
> > > Master's degree as the first professional degree push).
> > > > It appears that you made a "negative" assumption that it was a paid
> > effort due
> > > to what appears to be your somewhat negative (from my perspective at
> > > > least) view of ASCE.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > > Adrian, MI
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Polhemus, Bill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I say this with all due respect to folks like Stan Caldwell, who I
> > > > > know act out of a certain sense of altruism. And I don't mean to
> say
> > > > > that business interests are anathema. And further, if I'm
> > > > > misunderstanding this--if the individuals or ASCE itself isn't
> > getting
> > > > > any significant compensation for this and they're doing it out of
> > > > > public spiritedness--I profoundly apologize.
> > > > >
> > > >
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> 
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