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RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?

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Actually I went to USC, Figueroa Tech. I hired people with Cal Poly degrees
however and never regretted that decision.

Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
Burkett & Wong
San Diego, CA 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Moore [mailto:nma(--nospam--at)omsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 3:35 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> 
> Mark:
> 
> It appears that you must have taken the civil
> engineering curriculum at Poly.   In the ArchEngr
> curriculum, we took courses in concrete
> (including columns), steel and timber in our
> junior year.  Hans (I am old) taught us
> prestressed concrete and shells in our senior
> year as well as "indeterminate structures".  The
> structures course in the senior year was 5 units
> per quarter plus the senior project. (I did two
> as my education got interrupted by the Korea
> action:  A full size hyperbolic paraboloid out of
> plywood and then single span concrete
> bridges).  The senior year also included soil
> mechanics, ethics and a few other technical
> courses.   We were really lacking in social skills types of courses.
> 
> Of course I had problems with the EIT as it was
> geared towards civils and I lacked the hydraulics
> and thermo courses which I have never used
> anyway.   Passed the CE exam the first time, but
> had worked for a few years then got the SE exam
> in four years after I came back from an
> assignment in South America for John Blume and
> Associates and then worked in their earthquake research division.
> 
> Picking who you work for is a good decision.   I
> picked basically the San Francisco area, (could
> have been Los Angeles just as well).   But the
> extension courses at Cal were great, because they
> were taught by practicing structural
> engineers.   I was fortunate enough to take a
> course from T.Y. Lin and another from Ashraf Habibullah.
> 
> What prospective students need to do is to
> compare curriculums.   Our dean used to say, "It
> isn't that Cal Poly is so good; it's because the other schools are so
> bad."
> 
> Also, we tried not to hire people with their doctorate.
> 
> 
> 
> Neil Moore, SE, SECB
> 
> 
> 
> At 02:12 PM 6/1/2006, you wrote:
> >Lawyers have what amounts to a seven year education. Doctors, an eight
> year
> >education plus internship and residency. Engineers, only a paltry four. I
> >believe that engineering degrees should be at least a five year program.
> >Some schools actually are a five year program, or were. I think Cal Poly
> San
> >Luis Obispo had a five year program for architectural engineering, or was
> it
> >architecture? I don't remember.
> >
> >A four year degree only gives a very basic set of tools. If I hadn't
> >petitioned to take a number of graduate courses I wouldn't have learned
> >about concrete columns, masonry, wood, post-tensioned design or steel
> moment
> >resisting frames among other things.
> >
> >A five year program should be the minimum.
> >
> >Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
> >Burkett & Wong
> >San Diego, CA
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:51 PM
> > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > Subject: Re: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > Call me dumb, but I did not quite get whether that meant you wanted to
> > > hear reasons why it considered necessary and why I don't really "buy"
> > > those reasons.
> > >
> > > FWIW, do let me point out that I do STRONGLY believe that a Master's
> > > degree is a worthwhile and very useful thing and that many engineers
> can
> > > (and ultimately do) gain significant benefit from attaining a Master's
> > > degree.  I just don't think that it should be required in order to
> obtain
> > > a license.  As a case, in point, I do have my Master's degree and got
> it
> > > right after my Bachelor's degree (and actually have worked toward a
> PhD),
> > > so I do feel that (advanced) education is important and very useful.
> But,
> > > it was MY choice to get my advanced degrees.  And it was a good
> > > choice...for me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > Adrian, MI
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 bcainse(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Scott-
> > > > We'll take it in installements since you've now "rung the bell."
> :<)
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Bill Cain, S.E.
> > > > Berkeley CA
> > > >
> > > > Scott Maxwell wrote:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > <snip> ....
> > > >  I would address the various "excuses" for
> > > > why this is necessary, but don't want to waste people's time unless
> > > there
> > > > is a desire for the debate here.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > > Adrian, MI
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Caldwell, Stan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Scott & Bill:
> > > > >
> > > > > As a current member of the ASCE Board of Direction, I can
> personally
> > > attest
> > > > that the second rule of ASCE conduct is "Thou shall not compete with
> the
> > > ASCE
> > > > members and their employers."  [The first rule, of course, is "Thou
> > > shall not
> > > > violate the ASCE Code of Ethics."]  This policy, more than any
> other, is
> > > why the
> > > > ASCE Board voted to dissolve the Civil Engineering Research
> Foundation
> > > (CERF)
> > > > last January.  In fact, I was one of the three directors assigned to
> > > write the
> > > > report that led to that decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > From time to time, various public agencies ask ASCE to lead
> > > independent, third
> > > > party reviews of substantial civil engineering issues.  The first
> such
> > > review
> > > > might have been in 1872, involving the management of the design and
> > > construction
> > > > of the Brooklyn Bridge.  Some recent examples include the bombing of
> the
> > > Murrah
> > > > Federal Building, the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the
> > > terrorist
> > > > attack on the Pentagon, and the failure of the levees in New
> Orleans.
> > > The
> > > > Dulles Metrorail Tunnel is merely the most recent such request.
> > > > >
> > > > > ASCE responds to these requests by putting together volunteer
> panels
> > > of
> > > > nationally and internationally recognized experts, providing staff
> > > resources to
> > > > support their activities, and facilitating their meetings,
> > > presentations, and
> > > > publications.  The experts are individuals, not companies.  They
> work as
> > > > volunteers with expenses partially reimbursed.  The nominal costs of
> the
> > > > independent reviews varies based on the circumstances involved and
> the
> > > > requesting agencies are billed for these costs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Volunteer service as a professional engineer is a rewarding
> endeavor
> > > in many
> > > > ways, but not financially.  It can also be addictive.  Since last
> > > October, I
> > > > have spent an average of 3 days/week and 3 trips/month on ASCE
> business.
> > > In
> > > > return, I receive no compensation beyond partial reimbursement for
> > > travel
> > > > expenses.  I am grateful for having a family and an employer that
> will
> > > tolerate
> > > > this for the next three years.  It also explains why the SEAINT
> Listserv
> > > is no
> > > > longer distracted with my off-topic and politically incorrect posts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is easy for a design engineer to sit at his/her computer and
> > > criticize the
> > > > nonprofit organizations that serve the needs of engineers.  It is
> quite
> > > another
> > > > thing to get actively involved with one or more of these
> organizations.
> > > Such
> > > > involvement can greatly alter an engineer's perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I must sign off.  Seven emails have arrived from ASCE while I
> was
> > > typing
> > > > this message.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stan R. Caldwell, P.E., F.ASCE, F.AEI
> > > > > ASCE Technical Region Director
> > > > > President, Building Security Council
> > > > > Vice President, Halff Associates
> > > > > Dallas, Texas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > > ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:30 PM
> > > > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill:
> > > > >
> > > > > You hit on something that was "buzzing" in the back of my head
> during
> > > this
> > > > thread...there is nothing in that press statement that the ASCE-led
> > > panel that
> > > > would say one way or another if there is compensation involved.  The
> > > majority of
> > > > folks that responded assumed that this was something that ASCE was
> > > contracted to
> > > > do.  I, however, assumed when I first saw this "news" in my ASCE
> email
> > > > newsletter assumed that it was going to be an ASCE-led volunteer
> panel,
> > > much
> > > > like every single ASCE committee is comprised of volunteers that
> don't
> > > get paid
> > > > for their work.  When this thread popped up, I must admit that I
> went
> > > back and
> > > > re-read the news release and I cannot see anything that says one way
> or
> > > the
> > > > other.  Thus, I don't know if it is a paid effort or not.  The only
> > > thing that I
> > > > can say is that we may all be potentially guilty of making an
> assumption
> > > based
> > > > upon our preconceived notions of ASCE.  I made a "positive"
> assumption
> > > that it
> > > > was NOT a paid effort, but rather ASCE "volunteering" to help cause
> I
> > > generally
> > > > thing positive things of ASCE (except when you start to talk about
> their
> > > whole
> > > > Master's degree as the first professional degree push).
> > > > > It appears that you made a "negative" assumption that it was a
> paid
> > > effort due
> > > > to what appears to be your somewhat negative (from my perspective at
> > > > > least) view of ASCE.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott
> > > > > Adrian, MI
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Polhemus, Bill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I say this with all due respect to folks like Stan Caldwell, who
> I
> > > > > > know act out of a certain sense of altruism. And I don't mean to
> say
> > > > > > that business interests are anathema. And further, if I'm
> > > > > > misunderstanding this--if the individuals or ASCE itself isn't
> > > getting
> > > > > > any significant compensation for this and they're doing it out
> of
> > > > > > public spiritedness--I profoundly apologize.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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