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RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?

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So, what you are saying is that YOU don't want to spend the time mentoring
some young engineer by helping them learn with some on-the-job training
but rather you want the schools to pump out some nice, fully trained
engineer that you can just toss at a project and then forget about them?

That is at least what that arguement (and you are not the first to offer
it up) says to me.  And I tend to respond to that path of reasoning that
it NOT how the system is setup.  The schools are supposed to give an
engineer the basic principles and understanding of engineering priciples,
but NOT to pump out fully productive engineers.  In theory, the system is
supposed to pump out a fully "productive" engineer once they get their PE
license, which includes the 4 years (2 in CA) years of
experince/apprenticeship.

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Deardorff, Mark wrote:

> Three years for my Civil License and two more for my Structural License. I am just talking about putting a little more into the education so the first few years of an engineers career can be a little more productive.
>
> Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
> Burkett & Wong
> San Diego, CA
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Josh Comfort [mailto:jcomfort(--nospam--at)ggbse.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:19 PM
> > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> >
> > You're right, when you graduate you only have a "basic set of tools", but
> > how many years after you earned your degree did you work before you were
> > able to sit for your PE?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark E. Deardorff [mailto:mdeardorff(--nospam--at)burkett-wong.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:13 PM
> > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> >
> >
> > Lawyers have what amounts to a seven year education. Doctors, an eight
> > year
> > education plus internship and residency. Engineers, only a paltry four. I
> > believe that engineering degrees should be at least a five year program.
> > Some schools actually are a five year program, or were. I think Cal Poly
> > San
> > Luis Obispo had a five year program for architectural engineering, or was
> > it
> > architecture? I don't remember.
> >
> > A four year degree only gives a very basic set of tools. If I hadn't
> > petitioned to take a number of graduate courses I wouldn't have learned
> > about concrete columns, masonry, wood, post-tensioned design or steel
> > moment
> > resisting frames among other things.
> >
> > A five year program should be the minimum.
> >
> > Mark E. Deardorff, Structural Engineer
> > Burkett & Wong
> > San Diego, CA
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:51 PM
> > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > Subject: Re: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > Call me dumb, but I did not quite get whether that meant you wanted to
> > > hear reasons why it considered necessary and why I don't really "buy"
> > > those reasons.
> > >
> > > FWIW, do let me point out that I do STRONGLY believe that a Master's
> > > degree is a worthwhile and very useful thing and that many engineers can
> > > (and ultimately do) gain significant benefit from attaining a Master's
> > > degree.  I just don't think that it should be required in order to
> > obtain
> > > a license.  As a case, in point, I do have my Master's degree and got it
> > > right after my Bachelor's degree (and actually have worked toward a
> > PhD),
> > > so I do feel that (advanced) education is important and very useful.
> > But,
> > > it was MY choice to get my advanced degrees.  And it was a good
> > > choice...for me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > Adrian, MI
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 bcainse(--nospam--at)aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Scott-
> > > > We'll take it in installements since you've now "rung the bell."  :<)
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Bill Cain, S.E.
> > > > Berkeley CA
> > > >
> > > > Scott Maxwell wrote:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > <snip> ....
> > > >  I would address the various "excuses" for
> > > > why this is necessary, but don't want to waste people's time unless
> > > there
> > > > is a desire for the debate here.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > > Adrian, MI
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Caldwell, Stan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Scott & Bill:
> > > > >
> > > > > As a current member of the ASCE Board of Direction, I can personally
> > > attest
> > > > that the second rule of ASCE conduct is "Thou shall not compete with
> > the
> > > ASCE
> > > > members and their employers."  [The first rule, of course, is "Thou
> > > shall not
> > > > violate the ASCE Code of Ethics."]  This policy, more than any other,
> > is
> > > why the
> > > > ASCE Board voted to dissolve the Civil Engineering Research Foundation
> > > (CERF)
> > > > last January.  In fact, I was one of the three directors assigned to
> > > write the
> > > > report that led to that decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > From time to time, various public agencies ask ASCE to lead
> > > independent, third
> > > > party reviews of substantial civil engineering issues.  The first such
> > > review
> > > > might have been in 1872, involving the management of the design and
> > > construction
> > > > of the Brooklyn Bridge.  Some recent examples include the bombing of
> > the
> > > Murrah
> > > > Federal Building, the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the
> > > terrorist
> > > > attack on the Pentagon, and the failure of the levees in New Orleans.
> > > The
> > > > Dulles Metrorail Tunnel is merely the most recent such request.
> > > > >
> > > > > ASCE responds to these requests by putting together volunteer panels
> > > of
> > > > nationally and internationally recognized experts, providing staff
> > > resources to
> > > > support their activities, and facilitating their meetings,
> > > presentations, and
> > > > publications.  The experts are individuals, not companies.  They work
> > as
> > > > volunteers with expenses partially reimbursed.  The nominal costs of
> > the
> > > > independent reviews varies based on the circumstances involved and the
> > > > requesting agencies are billed for these costs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Volunteer service as a professional engineer is a rewarding endeavor
> > > in many
> > > > ways, but not financially.  It can also be addictive.  Since last
> > > October, I
> > > > have spent an average of 3 days/week and 3 trips/month on ASCE
> > business.
> > > In
> > > > return, I receive no compensation beyond partial reimbursement for
> > > travel
> > > > expenses.  I am grateful for having a family and an employer that will
> > > tolerate
> > > > this for the next three years.  It also explains why the SEAINT
> > Listserv
> > > is no
> > > > longer distracted with my off-topic and politically incorrect posts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is easy for a design engineer to sit at his/her computer and
> > > criticize the
> > > > nonprofit organizations that serve the needs of engineers.  It is
> > quite
> > > another
> > > > thing to get actively involved with one or more of these
> > organizations.
> > > Such
> > > > involvement can greatly alter an engineer's perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I must sign off.  Seven emails have arrived from ASCE while I
> > was
> > > typing
> > > > this message.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stan R. Caldwell, P.E., F.ASCE, F.AEI
> > > > > ASCE Technical Region Director
> > > > > President, Building Security Council
> > > > > Vice President, Halff Associates
> > > > > Dallas, Texas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > > ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:30 PM
> > > > > To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: Is ASCE Competing Against Us?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill:
> > > > >
> > > > > You hit on something that was "buzzing" in the back of my head
> > during
> > > this
> > > > thread...there is nothing in that press statement that the ASCE-led
> > > panel that
> > > > would say one way or another if there is compensation involved.  The
> > > majority of
> > > > folks that responded assumed that this was something that ASCE was
> > > contracted to
> > > > do.  I, however, assumed when I first saw this "news" in my ASCE email
> > > > newsletter assumed that it was going to be an ASCE-led volunteer
> > panel,
> > > much
> > > > like every single ASCE committee is comprised of volunteers that don't
> > > get paid
> > > > for their work.  When this thread popped up, I must admit that I went
> > > back and
> > > > re-read the news release and I cannot see anything that says one way
> > or
> > > the
> > > > other.  Thus, I don't know if it is a paid effort or not.  The only
> > > thing that I
> > > > can say is that we may all be potentially guilty of making an
> > assumption
> > > based
> > > > upon our preconceived notions of ASCE.  I made a "positive" assumption
> > > that it
> > > > was NOT a paid effort, but rather ASCE "volunteering" to help cause I
> > > generally
> > > > thing positive things of ASCE (except when you start to talk about
> > their
> > > whole
> > > > Master's degree as the first professional degree push).
> > > > > It appears that you made a "negative" assumption that it was a paid
> > > effort due
> > > > to what appears to be your somewhat negative (from my perspective at
> > > > > least) view of ASCE.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott
> > > > > Adrian, MI
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Polhemus, Bill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I say this with all due respect to folks like Stan Caldwell, who I
> > > > > > know act out of a certain sense of altruism. And I don't mean to
> > say
> > > > > > that business interests are anathema. And further, if I'm
> > > > > > misunderstanding this--if the individuals or ASCE itself isn't
> > > getting
> > > > > > any significant compensation for this and they're doing it out of
> > > > > > public spiritedness--I profoundly apologize.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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