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RE: "Code Approval" (was big dig structural failure - epoxy anchors overhead supporting gravity)

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Well said Jordan, your posts have been right on track on a number of
subjects recently.

By the way, what is OMGWTFBBQ?  I got as far as F with my own
interpretation.....maybe through the first B...can you say that in
email???


Paul Feather PE, SE
pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
www.SE-Solutions.net
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:28 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: "Code Approval" (was big dig structural failure - epoxy
anchors overhead supporting gravity)

Where I am, ICC-ES reports are considered "code approval," and it's a 
darned good thing they are, or else nothing would get built. I know a 
couple of building officials who will "approve" the use of materials, 
but that's because they live and work in the middle of nowhere, and 
almost nobody gets sued. Anywhere close to a  city and that answer is 
uniformly, "If it isn't in the code, I won't approve it. If an engineer 
approves the use of your widget, have them send me a letter and I'll 
okay it." Now, I'm not necessarily beneath wanting to be treated like a 
building god, but sometimes it get a bit out of hand.

It's annoying when the "evaluation service" says it complies with code, 
but doesn't approve it's use by the code. OMGWTFBBQ?!?! Look, it 
complies with the code and is therefore approved for use subject to the 
limitations in the report, or it doesn't comply with code. None of this 
"is complies with code, but isn't approved unless the BO, who probably 
has no technical training whatsoever in the subject application, says 
its okay."  The wording, in my opinion, is just lawyer speak for "if you

use it and it breaks, it's not our fault". Bull. If we can't count on 
ICC-ES reports to be accurate and complete, we may as well throw them 
away and just go with the marketing literature. If a manufacturer pays 
for the ICC-ES report, then the results should be binding.

The ICC is quickly approaching ACI in my "organizations I love to hate" 
list.

Excuse me...time for my medication ;-)

Jordan



Polhemus, Bill wrote:

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Skaggs [mailto:tom.skaggs(--nospam--at)apawood.org] 
>Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:25 PM
>To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>Subject: "Code Approval" (was big dig structural failure - epoxy
anchors
>overhead supporting gravity)
>
>I'm not trying to nit-pick your main point, however it is important to
>note that ICC-ES is NOT an "approving agency".  They have issued a very
>good explanation of their role
>(http://www.icc-es.org/News/code-approval.shtml).
>
>-----/Original Message/-----
>
>Man, I love it when a discussion comes up here that exactly matches a
>situation with which I'm currently dealing.
>
>I went to the page you referenced above and found this sentence:
>
>"Evaluation reports on products have been erroneously construed as
>making the decision for the code official rather than providing an
>independent technical resource from which a decision can be justified."
>
>Now, the great majority of situations where this misconstruing has gone
>on, are faits accompli. That is, the engineer's already specified the
>product's use, the contractor's already installed it, and no one is
ever
>going to be one whit the wiser as to whether "proper approval" was
given
>or not.
>
>However, in my work I deal with the OTHER side of things: There's
>already been a problem, and now we're digging into the "how" and "why."
>And invariably, I come up with things that were done by my fellow
>structural engineers not quite according to Hoyle (or at least the
>building official).
>
>What I want to know is: Do you ALWAYS have to get approval for
"widgets"
>like epoxy adhesive anchors that AREN'T specifically covered in the
text
>of the model code? That is the kinds of products that the Evaluation
>Reports deal with.
>
>If so, how maddening--and how unfortunate for the designer who meant
>well all along, but to whom it never occurred to think, "oh, I've got
to
>make sure the building official approves of this Hilti anchor..."
>
>Comments please.
>
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