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Re: Substitute concrete for grout?

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I will note that one of the masonry textbooks that I have says that "the
code" does permit the use of mortar instead of grout in some limited
applications (i.e. a very small limited amount of grouting in needed).  It
does note that it  would require making the mortar much more flowable
(i.e. adding water).  It does not note what "the code" is and I have not
found such a reference in the MSJC (masonry code...aka ACI 530 etc).

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Harold Sprague wrote:

> I have an article dealing with this.  I will try to dig it out when I get
> back to the office later this week.
>
> Grout is very fluid so that it can be pumped and will consolidate around
> embeds and rebar.  Mortar is very stiff because its function is to bond 2
> masonry units together.  It would not flow into the spaces without creating
> a lot of voids.
>
> The extra water in the grout is drawn off of the grout in the masonry units.
>   Grouts reduction in volume immediately after placement is due to this loss
> of water.
>
> Regards,
> Harold Sprague
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Jordan Truesdell, PE" <seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> >To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Substitute concrete for grout?
> >Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:55:28 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I've heard that too (water absorption preventing full hydration) but
> >can't remember where. 
> >
> >
> >
> >As a follow up what about the substitution of mortar for grout?
> >
> >
> >Jordan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Will Haynes wrote:
> >I thought I remembered something about the reason why you
> >shouldn't allow substitution of concrete for grout was because of the
> >wetness of grout compared to concrete and the porous nature of cmu,
> >which would absorb and bond to the grout much better than to concrete.
> >But maybe I just dreamed that one night.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Will H.
> >
> >
> >
> >   On 2/26/07, Scott Maxwell <smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu>
> >wrote:
> >   Will,
> >
> >
> >
> >Keep in mind that technically grout is concrete.  It is just concrete
> >with
> >
> >a large slump and thus rather high water to cement ratio.
> >
> >
> >
> >To my knowledge, there is nothing that specifically disallows the use
> >of
> >
> >
> >concrete in filling reinforced CMU cells (if so, then technically grout
> >
> >would not be allowed either).  The MSJC specification (ACI 530.1/TMS
> >
> >602/ASCE 6-05) does state in Article 2.6B.2:
> >
> >
> >
> >"Unless otherwise required, mix grout to a consistency that has a slump
> >
> >
> >between 8 and 11 in."
> >
> >
> >
> >Article 2.6B.1 states:
> >
> >
> >
> >"Unless otherwise required, proportion and mix grout in accordance with
> >
> >the requirements of ASTM C 476."
> >
> >
> >
> >In the end, grout is just concrete that is "flowable" enough to
> >properly
> >
> >
> >fill voids without undue segregation.  This is typically done with high
> >
> >slumps.  Thus, grout is just typically a VERY wet concrete (but with
> >
> >typically smaller aggregate than "typical" concrete...i.e. rare to get
> >
> >
> >aggregate greater than 3/8" for course grout).
> >
> >
> >
> >HTH,
> >
> >
> >
> >Scott
> >
> >Adrian, MI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Will Haynes wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I seem to remember that ACI does not allow you to substitute
> >concrete for
> >
> >
> > > grout when filling reinforced cmu cells, having something to do
> >with the
> >
> > > water absorption from the grout into the units. But I can't find
> >where this
> >
> > > is stated. Does anyone know if this is correct?
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Will Haynes, P.E.
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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