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Re: Texas PE

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Fellow engineers,

I think that the real issue here is not whether or not the document in question has an electronic stamp, a faxed stamp, a photocopied stamp or, in fact, no stamp at all. The real issue, in my opinion, is whether the document is legitimate or a forgery.

I have had my stamp forged in the past. In my case the deed was done by photocopying the signed stamp from another document onto transparent stick-on material; the stick-on stamp is then applied to any document. Admittedly, this does require that photocopied documents are acceptable, however, drawings are almost always reproductions with the engineer's stamp on the original; and color fax-scanner-copiers are now very low in price and very readily available. As evidence, my own combination color scanner, fax machine, copier, bears the "Brother" brand name, cost only $296.00, and produces copies that are virtually indistinguishable from the original.

I think this type of forgery may be related to the consideration "Is engineering a product or a service?" If engineering is to be considered a service (my own personal belief) then how the stamp is applied, or even whether there is a stamp or not, is irrelevant. I think the only real way to prevent forgeries is for the authority having jurisdiction to the identity of person submitting the design for permitting, to confirm that the person is, in fact, a registered professional qualified to oversee the work, and to have the person sign a statutory declaration that (s)he is, in fact assuming full responsibility for the project.

Anyway, please excuse my ranting. I feel strongly about this subject!!

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message ----- From: "Thor Tandy" <vicpeng(--nospam--at)telus.net>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Cc: "Ed Huston" <huston(--nospam--at)smithhustoninc.com>; "Gillian Pichler" <gpichler(--nospam--at)apeg.bc.ca>; "Peter Mitchell" <mitchell(--nospam--at)apeg.bc.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Texas PE


There are companies out there that specialize in electronic sealing/signing
software.  Here at the Assoc. of Profess. Engineers of BC (APEGBC) they
already have commissioned such a company.  All the issues aired so far in
this thread have been addressed and the powers that be are satisfied that it
is secure enough.

If you want more detail on the rigorousness/effectiveness of the software,
call the APEGBC at 1-604-430-8035 and ask for Peter Mitchell or Gillian
Pichler.

I understand we are poised to make it available to our membership.

Thor A. Tandy P.Eng, MIStructE, Struct Eng
Victoria, BC
Canada
vicpeng(--nospam--at)telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: Rand W Holtham [mailto:RHoltham(--nospam--at)CBI.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 12:54 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: Texas PE


The intention (IMHO) of the anti-electronic signature is that the
responsible Engineer had at a minimum touched the engineered document and
that some other person did not issued the document without the consent of
the responsible engineer. The electronic signature makes rubber stamping
infraction just too easy. So a faxed copy of a seal document is legitimate
as I see it as much as a photocopy of a stamped document is legit.


Rand


            "Jerry Coombs"    <JCoombs(--nospam--at)carollo.com>


The original document must be signed, sealed, and *transmitted*. It may be
followed by a facsimile of whatever sort, but there must be a real paper
trail to the original, to the person distributing them.  One fuzzy area
that is not explicit, but seems acceptable, is to fax a sealed addendum,
correction, etc; but these should really be followed by a hard copy, too.

"Jordan Truesdell, PE" <seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com> 8/15/2007
6:22 AM >>>
I've been away for a bit, and didn't get a chance to reply earlier. Does
this mean that you cannot fax a sealed document? And for the prohibition,
does it apply to sending the document or to the validity of the sent
document?
Jordan


Jerry Coombs wrote:
     If you can't find a blank, I may be able to strip name/ number from
     mine and send.  Keep in mind that it is NOT ALLOWED in Texas, as in
     many states, to transmit a signed stamp electronically.


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