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RE: ASCE 7-05

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If you write it, they will adopt it.  It gets adopted because it is there. It
is self perpetuating.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)umich.edu] 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:05 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: ASCE 7-05

Extortion by whom?  I will remind you that the IBC (and ASCE 7 and the NDS
and ACI 318, etc) doesn't have ANY force until a local jurisdiction or state
adopts it.  There is absolutely NOTHING that FORCES a state or local
jurisdiction to adopt the latest version of a model code or standard.  After
all California sat on their tushies with the 1997 UBC for almost 10 years
(granted they did modify it some with updates).  Thus, if states and/or local
jurisdictions stopped adopting the latest and greatest codes, then the
various code development organizations would likely start spreading out the
cycles of code development (there is already some push anyways...ASCE 7 is
basically going to a 5/6 cycle...the next ASCE 7 will not be until 2010).

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On 10/22/07 6:54 PM, "Haan, Scott M POA" <Scott.M.Haan(--nospam--at)poa02.usace.army.mil>
wrote:

> Here. Here. The code wind loads have gotten overly complicated since 
> the 97 UBC under the guise of tailoring your loads to the site. It is
ridiculuous.
> Telling the gurus to stop going berzerk is not backseat driving.
> 
> Also reformatting the layout of a part of the code to make it easier 
> to follow does not not make it easier to follow until you relearn 
> where everything is. It is a pain.  Case in point: ASCE7-05 seismic
provisions.
> 
> The end product of the ANSI process is the codes get modified enough 
> every three years so everyone will have to buy new books and go to the 
> seminars to learn how to use them.  It is extortion.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: smaxwell(--nospam--at)umich.edu [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)umich.edu]
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:35 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: ASCE 7-05
> 
> While I do believe that there are a lot of engineers out there who are 
> overly harsh on the various code/standard committees (it is rather 
> easy to "backseat" drive or complain about stuff when you are not 
> familiar with the process or the work that goes on and the difficulty 
> in getting sometimes 50+ people to agree enough on something to 
> produce a provision), I do believe that ASCE 7 has gotten a little out 
> of hand with the wind provisions.  Having messed with the wind loads 
> for signs recently, I can say that it is WAY to involved a process to 
> get wind loads for a freakin' sign (it took me multiple hours to JUST get
the wind pressure for the sign).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott
> Adrian, MI
> 
> Quoting "Garner, Robert" <rgarner(--nospam--at)moffattnichol.com>:
> 
>> 
>> ASCE has very successfully made wind design into rocket science.  Way 
>> to go ASCE!
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. [mailto:ghodgson(--nospam--at)bellnet.ca]
>> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:59 AM
>> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>> Subject: Re: ASCE 7-05
>> 
>> I will take back part of what I said.  The quality of engineering 
>> drawings, particularly structural drawings from the US, are very good.
>> However when you read computer instructions, technical manuals, and 
>> codes where they have been prepared by engineering organizations, 
>> they usually leave something to be desired.  The trouble is that they 
>> know all about  their subject but don't realize outsiders are 
>> starting from scratch; they just assume everyone will know what they 
>> mean..  An example is 1995 ASCE-I bought their Minimum Design Loads 
>> for Buildings
>> -- and after reading the seismic requirements three times I was 
>> totally lost and thought the problem was me.  So I called a friend at 
>> a large engineering company who was assistant head of the industrial 
>> department and he said the ASCE seismic parts seem to go in circles.  
>> We agreed to ignore it and use the UBC, I believe.  I wrote a letter 
>> of complaint to ASCE and heard nothing back.  If I am not mistaken, 
>> there have been a lot of complaints recently about the ASCE wind load
requirements.
>> 
>> Christopher Wright wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Oct 20, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Actually makes sense, as engineers are not known for their 
>>>> communication ability Gary
>>> Not the good ones. Engineering is discipline of communications--we 
>>> don't (routinely) make things; we tell people who do how to makes 
>>> things properly. That's what drawings and reports are all 
>>> about--communicating instructions unambiguously to artisans (for 
>>> lack of a better word) can give materials a specific usefulness. We 
>>> don't do science or math; we use science and math to make sure the 
>>> instructions we communicate are soundly based in physical principles.
>>> 
>>> My own experience is that academics who teach engineering tend to 
>>> lose
>> 
>>> sight of the need for communications and organization--maybe out of 
>>> desire for greater rigor in presentation or just a tendency to 
>>> impress
>> 
>>> the onlooker with technicalities. I know that's happened with the 
>>> Pressure Vessel Codes. With the ASME Codes, I think the problem is 
>>> that industry isn't supporting Code writng efforts like they once 
>>> did,
>> 
>>> and academia has necessarily moved in. I've always suspected 
>>> (without an ounce of actual proof) that it's what happened when LRFD 
>>> was introduced.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
>>> chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com   | this distance" (last words of Gen.
>>> .......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
>>> 1864)
>>> http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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