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RE: seaint Digest for 16 Sep 2010

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Collateral Load:

Pre-engineered building calculations always refer to collateral DEAD Load.  

If you have concentrated loads on the roof framing, the purlins (and perhaps
even the frames) must be reinforced or purlins added.  The collateral load
is an allowance, but the allowance  may not be adequate for all conditions.


When all else fails, read the instructions. / eric

-----Original Message-----
From: admin [mailto:admin(--nospam--at)seausa.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 12:00 AM
To: engineers(--nospam--at)kembcon.com
Subject: seaint Digest for 16 Sep 2010


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                       seaint Digest for 16 Sep 2010

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1: Re: Collateral - Dead or Live?
             by "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <design(--nospam--at)hodgsoneng.ca>
   2: AISC 13 section E6
             by "Joseph R. Grill" <vveng(--nospam--at)cableone.net>
   3: Re: Collateral - Dead or Live?
             by ad026 rpransom <ad026(--nospam--at)rpransom.ca>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                                Message:0001                            1
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From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <design(--nospam--at)hodgsoneng.ca>
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: Collateral - Dead or Live?

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    I consider it to be a live load. First it is unpredictable: is it
    lighting or mechanical, where will it be and are there going to be
    sprinklers and are there concentrated loads.&nbsp; I had job a few years
    ago where the pre-eng bldg manuf'r treated collateral as a dead
    load.&nbsp; When the sprinklers were installed, some of the purlins were
    found to be over-stressed after the site review engineer questioned
    the location and method of attachment (site review or observation is
    mandatory in Canada for jobs over 600 sq m or 3 stories).&nbsp; If the
    designer had used a live load factor of 1.5 instead of the dead
    factor of 1.25, some of the checking and changes would not have been
    necessary. As I was not the PEMB designer I don't know what they did
    or didn't do to satisfy themselves that every thing was
    hunkey-dorey.<br>
    Gary<br>
    <br>
    On 9/15/2010 1:15 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:fsrahbar(--nospam--at)aol.com">fsrahbar(--nospam--at)aol.com</a> wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:8CD2310C6C70CF4-1EB8-2382(--nospam--at)webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com"
      type="cite"><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica,
        sans-serif" size="2">
        <div><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dead
            Load.</font></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font color="black" face="arial" size="2"><span style=""><span
                style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31,
                73, 125); font-size: 10pt;">Farzin S. Rahbar,
SE<o:p></o:p></span></span></font></div>
        <div style="clear: both;">
          <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span
              style=""><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 10pt;"><font
                  color="black" face="arial" size="2">Vice President<br>
                  David C. Weiss Structural Engineer &amp; Associates,
                  Inc.<br>
                  (818) 227-8040 Ex. 13 Fax: (818)
227-8041</font></span></span><span
              style=""><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; color: black;
          font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
          From: Adam Vakiener <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:avakiener(--nospam--at)southernae.com">&lt;avakiener(--nospam--at)southernae.com&gt;</a><
br>
          To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org">seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org</a><br>
          Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2010 7:31 am<br>
          Subject: Re: Collateral - Dead or Live?<br>
          <br>
          <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_1843d7bc-11b2-4d68-bf01-251c7308b48d">I
            consider it to be a dead load.&nbsp; All of the Metal Building
            Manufacturers that I have dealt with do the same.<br>
            <br>
            -- <br>
            Adam Vakiener, P.E.<br>
            Structural Engineer<br>
            Southern A &amp; E, LLC<br>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:48 AM,
              Jim Getaz <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
 
href="mailto:jgetaz(--nospam--at)shockeyprecast.com">jgetaz(--nospam--at)shockeyprecast.com</a>&gt;</s
pan>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
                204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"
                class="gmail_quote">
                <div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="2">
                    <div><font
color="#0000ff">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <font
                          face="Times New Roman,
serif">Listers,</font></font></div>
                    <div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman,
 
serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Poll: If you use the term
                        collateral load or if it is used on some of your
                        projects, do you consider it a dead load or a
                        live load?</font></div>
                    <div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman,
                        serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Thank you,</font></div>
                    <div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman,
                        serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Jim Getaz</font></div>
                    <div>&nbsp;</div>
                  </font></div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </div>
          <!-- end of AOLMsgPart_2_1843d7bc-11b2-4d68-bf01-251c7308b48d
--></div>
      </font>
    </blockquote>
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From: "Joseph R. Grill" <vveng(--nospam--at)cableone.net>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Subject: AISC 13 section E6

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I need a little clarification.  13th edition of AISC section E6 is for
built-up members.  I don't think this is for a column fabricated of welded
up plates, is it?  A compression member fabricated with fully welded plates
would fall into section E4.  If I am correct (the commentary states "stitch
welded" members) what type of compression members are covered in E6?  A
lattice column or a plate column that is stitch welded?

Thanks,

Joe 

 

Joseph R. Grill, PE

Verde Valley Engineering, PLLC

email: VVEng(--nospam--at)cableone.net

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal>I need a little clarification.&nbsp; = 13<sup>th</sup>
edition of AISC section E6 is for built-up members.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t
think = this is for a column fabricated of welded up plates, is it?&nbsp; A
compression = member fabricated with fully welded plates would fall into
section E4.&nbsp; If I am = correct (the commentary states &#8220;stitch
welded&#8221; members) what type of = compression members are covered in
E6?&nbsp; A lattice column or a plate column that = is stitch
welded?<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Joe <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Joseph R. Grill, PE<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Verde Valley Engineering, PLLC<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>email: VVEng(--nospam--at)cableone.net<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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3                                Message:0003                            3
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Subject: Re: Collateral - Dead or Live?
From: ad026 rpransom <ad026(--nospam--at)rpransom.ca>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>

Jim,
Think of the effect to know how to apply it.

Dead load is there permanently. That is, it is the materials of the designed
assembly (until somebody renovates).

Live load is here today, gone tomorrow and moves around in the meantime.

Collateral load is somewhere in between. Once it is installed, it is
probably there on a long term basis (years). We may not be certain about
exact location at the time of design but we are usually relatively confident
about the general magnitude of the load.

Therefore, it is reasonable to use Dead load factors but consider the load
combination effects with and without the load as with a Live load.

So put me down for yes and yes.

Regards
Paul
--
Paul Ransom, P.Eng.
ad026(--nospam--at)RPRansom.ca

> From: Jim Getaz <jgetaz(--nospam--at)shockeyprecast.com>
> To: "seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org" <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Subject: Collateral - Dead or Live?
> 
> --_000_BBFFFC1D6346A9458F964468FDB82563035534B2DCshockeymailsh_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Listers,
> Poll: If you use the term collateral load or if it is used = on some 
> of your projects, do you consider it a dead load or a live load?
> Thank you,
> Jim Getaz



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